Visitor:
November 2013 follow up:

I did a bit of research on who this s.o.b. is and was very surprised to come across this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16842478 wherein it states that

"But a second proposed trial of six more protesters collapsed in January 2011 after it emerged that the officer wanted to use his secret recordings to help the defence"

and

Known as Mark "Flash" Stone - he had cash and a van - his secret activity emerged by accident with the chance discovery of his real passport. Unmasked, he offered to help protesters facing trial in Nottingham - evidence that ultimately led to the trial's collapse.

Any idea how true this is?  I was about to feature him on my http://www.animal-voices.com/named-shamed/ page but I'm not sure what information to trust.

Thank
Linda - Animal-Voices.com


This is a statement from a group of people who have considered Mark 'Stone' a friend for the last decade.

Mark Mark
Mark


Mark 'Stone' has been an undercover police officer from 2000 to at least the end of 2009. We are unsure whether he is still a serving police officer or not. His real name is Mark Kennedy. Investigations into this identity revealed evidence that he has been a police officer, and a face-to-face confession has confirmed this. Mark claims that he left the police force in late 2009, and that before becoming an undercover officer he was a Metropolitan police constable.

Please pass this information on to anyone who may have been in contact with Mark in the last decade, both in the UK and abroad.

Comments

 

any proof?

21.10.2010 17:58

any proof? or just rumours?

???????????????????


Yes there is proof.

21.10.2010 18:20

Not sure what can be put up here, but can confirm that this isn't just rumour. Love to all who were close to him.

A


This is from a confession

21.10.2010 18:25

Please read the article.

This has been posted after he was confronted by his friends in the activist community and he confessed details including how long and how much he was paid. He was/is an undercover cop not just a snitch.

It is a reminder to always be vigilante and be wary of those who bring little of their background life into their activism and those who quickly want to be involved in the most 'full on' things.

However we need to remain open and welcoming to new people and not get paranoid.

It is a tricky balancing act to walk and probably nothing we will ever do will prevent open/semi-open groups being infiltrated but this should not paralyze us.

Love and solidarity to all those have taken action and shared their lives alongside this undercover cop.

Confirmed


fucking hell

21.10.2010 19:22

i cant believe its him. im sickened - i bet this scum is where the iona school raid tip off came from,???

bastard.

sickened


twat

21.10.2010 19:39

what an utter utter shit , bought this cunt a pint on a few occasions...hope his other family disown the fucker as well...Do you have a conscience mate ?

Concerned of gipton


sadly its true

21.10.2010 19:46

It's fucking gutting, but sadly it is true. Mark "Flash" Stone was confronted and admitted that he had been a serving police officer since 2000. Mark has been around a lot of movements - Earth First, anti-fascism, Dissent (you may remember him as one of the organisers of the driving teams at Stirling), was starting to get into animal rights.Its not a reason to get paranoid but it is a reason to be careful. He's by no means the first and he will not be the last. The worst thing he has done is the deep betrayal to a lot of people and the damage it has done to very good people. It does not matter how repentant he might be - fuck him.

Check out www.activistsecurity.org who have a booklet on identifying and dealing with scum like this.

FTP


jesus fucking wept

21.10.2010 19:50

This is insane. I personally don't feel compromised as he would have known about as much as the the police already know - but on a movement/scene wide level he was in a position to join a lot of dots and put people in certain places at particular times. "Another Van Cop" as a comrade remarked to me; we can only wonder how much has been dropped in terms of security due to the need for transport.

That said - responding to the comment about not trusting people who turn up and straight away want to be on the edge of legality in campaigns - i don't think anyone would treat their experience of him like that. Fuck, *look* at the bloke; what did they do, send him from Hendon to spend five years smoking rollies and living in a tent? Anyone can be made into a police asset, but an actually Police OFFICER?

fuck me.

I can't see him actually having managed to separate 2 personalities here - it boggles the mind that he's spend so long doing basically fuck all, expending so much effort in terms of debate, slow, dull legwork and campaigning - and still be thinking "aha, fooling these oh-so dangerous activists brilliantly..."
He must be a deeply conflicted individual. His life is almost certainly in tatters. Here's to hoping.

bill stickers


I'd never have believed it...

21.10.2010 19:51

Not sure what it was which caused people closer to him on a daily basis to become suspicious, investigate, and eventually question him, but he was one of the last people I'd have suspected. Just shows that our instincts and feelings are not a reliable guide in this minefield. I feel very sorry for a couple of people in particular who must be devastated at this news.

stroppyoldgit


Fucking SCUM

21.10.2010 19:56

We used to call him 'Flash' cos he had more money than the rest of us.

Now we know why.

Fucking scum.

Love to those he betrayed.

betrayed


oh shit, no!

21.10.2010 19:58

Still reeling from this. The total cunt.
Thinking mostly now of those very close to him - you have my love, solidarity and shared rage.

anon


emails to remove from lists

21.10.2010 20:08

He's on numerous email lists. We've removed him from ours

If you have
 flashwheels@yahoo.co.uk
of anything with "lumsk" in it
you should take him off.

He has also been builiding connections with activists on the European mainland, in particular in Berlin, Austria and Italy. Possibly also France and Holland. If you have contacts there please forward this news on.

Love to all those hurt by this, but it will take more than that to break us.

activists in the north of england


whats wrong with him being a copper?

21.10.2010 20:23

police arnt all bad. Some of them got my belongings back when i was burgled.
didnt see any anti-fash or climate protestors helping me out then

steve malloy


United we are stronger

21.10.2010 20:27

Being assertive and critical will only make actions for environmental and social justice stronger. It is also important to not take these acts of state repression lying down and let the 'powers that be' know that this is unacceptable and will not be taken lying down. Big love to one and all hurt by this

dan glass
mail e-mail: dan888glass@gmail.com


who has he been

21.10.2010 20:34

It is worth thinking about the fact that the cops already have other people in place for the next decade of activism in the UK.

 http://www.activistsecurity.org/Infiltrators0.3.pdf

replaced by?


Why Mark, why?

21.10.2010 20:35

Oh Mark! WHY!?

We shared a particularly brotherly experience once... or so I thought. Even though we were only really mates in passing and never hung out that much, I have held you in very high regard since that day.

Now I'm just left thinking that all the conversations we ever had were phoney, and wondering how on earth you managed to separate your double life in this way? A person I thought I knew has now vanished from existence, and is a "never was". It's actually worse than someone dying, in many ways - I'm really angry as well as mourning for a lost friend.

I don't know what your reasons would be, and I don't want to judge you for whatever you've done. Calling you "fucking scum" etc. is a bit too superficial really, and if anything, is not angry or specific enough to make any difference. I expect words like those will be water off a duck's back to you by now anyway.

Considering that I wasn't even THAT close to you, and how much this news has affected me tonight, I really feel a deep sadness for friends who I know were much closer to you than I was.

I want to live in a world based on honesty, truth, friendship and mutual respect for ourselves and our planet - just like everyone you've undoubtedly been involved in betraying over the years.

People who really care and are trying to do their little bit to make the world a better place, all betrayed, and for what purpose?

Why Mark, why would you do that?

Man Of The Woods


.

21.10.2010 20:48

"Calling you "fucking scum" etc. is a bit too superficial really, and if anything, is not angry or specific enough to make any difference"

I'm not trying to make a difference, just venting my fury at someone I thought was a mate. Those of us who got pissed with him, went climbing with him, went on actions with him, considered him a mate (and sometimes more, the sleazy bastard).... we don't have to defend our rage and betrayal!

betrayed


Do the right thing

21.10.2010 20:50

Mark if your reading this, do the honourable thing and expose the people you were working for, what operations you were involved in, how much you got paid to fuck up the lives of everyone that ever cared for you over the past 9 years.

painful memories

21.10.2010 20:58

this is so sad. i was also duped by a police informer, some years ago. someone i called "dad" who i had shared many intense experiences with both as a campaigner/activist and as a human being. i don't have anything useful to say i just wanted to send out huge hugs to all those affected by this. it ripped me apart on many levels, was deeply traumatic, and even split those of us who had been the victims of this guy. hope you won't let that happen to you. much love, rage, respect, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

also spied on


More photos?

21.10.2010 21:03

If anyone has them?

scum of the earth

21.10.2010 21:09

fuck, and I feel violated, I hate to think about the people who were involved in organising actions with him that got busted (yes that included the Iona School Nottingham 114), the deep friends he had, never mind the people who loved him as a friend and lover. My sincerest feelings of shared betrayal, and through that, love and loyalty to all of them (& us) go out.

I can understand why 'fucking scum' had passed my lips too before I even read it here. It's actually the depth of feeling that makes those words really mean something horrible, and that was the person we once knew. If all his back problems and trips to the US were fake and excuses to go spend time with his other family, I think (& hope?) that his phases of depression were real and a result of the reality of his behaviour.

If I never see him again, it'll be too soon.

fucked


no surprise....

21.10.2010 21:15

shocked because confirmed duplicity on this scale is fundamentally incomprehensible... but not surprised

- high unearned income (no details of income/work even to those intimate with him)
- turned up out of nowhere and then suddenly knew everyone all ova europe
- no political handle - just a full-on goodtime boy - but couldn't get a sense of why he was involved?
- long and sometimes sudden absences to mystery brother abroad
- taking personal mobile to actions and meetings and not turning them off
- lack of accessibility to non-political people in his life eg old friends, family

said it quite a few times over the years that things didn't add up with Mark but what do we do when we have suspicions but no evidence? he fit all the criteria for undercover, but was involved with some very trustworthy and amazing people so... until some evidence showed up it was just bitching and a bad feeling. and we don't want to fall into patterning and normalising people like the system does, so we end up in a pretty difficult position when we feel like someone might be a cop because they don't quite fit the bill (excuse the pun).

we all have to keep secrets sometimes, but i think we know when there's something up...

mark, i am sure you are reading this, and i am really glad to be me and not to be you. fuck, man, you really fucked over some amazing, beautiful people and you know it as much as we all do... and i am glad that i don't have to live with that and i am sorry for you that you will have to live with that. we make heaven and hell here on earth - welcome to hell.

i


@steve malloy

21.10.2010 21:18

Did you ask any anti-fascists or climate campers for help first? No? Didn't think so.

ACAB


Doing the right thing

21.10.2010 21:18

Why on earth would mark do the right thing, after all as far as he is concerned he thought he was doing the right thing in working for the state..

Our movement is full of spies and infiltrators, employed by the police, by private contractors, employed by the energy companies, arms companies, etc etc.

Now lets be mature about this, and not feel betrayed when it happens, it is just how it is, we are subversives and they are not, and that is why they spy on us...

Spyspotter..
mail e-mail: leon.mats44@gmail.com


its really not always obvious and can be the last person you'd have expected

21.10.2010 21:20

just to add that the guy who spied on us - well i spent entire weekends with his son, had many dinners and nights at the pub with his wife, spent time in his home, etc.

point is - they are hard to spot, are often not the ones you suspect, and its always massively painful when truth is discovered. someone is always around to say "i told you so/i knew it" - but its never helpful.

also spied on


More than just reporting

21.10.2010 21:28

Always following the black block - and driving them. Plan B is Berlin.

140


On one hand...

21.10.2010 21:35

it's alarming that he got away with it for so long and was so deep in and so trusted.

On the other, it mustn't induce a destructive paranoia in which everybody starts to suspect everybody else. It might be that the powers of darkness are quite content for him to be outed at this stage, hoping for exactly that effect. Combined with the deep hurt and sense of betrayal many people feel, this could rip apart several important networks and activist scenes -if we let it.

So let's not let it. There's lessons to be learned from the similar devastating betrayal in CAAT a few years ago. This is a time to stay solid, care for each other, keep active, and steer a course between sensible security and irrational paranoia.

Stroppyoldgit


shoe on other foot for once

21.10.2010 22:06

with the amount of pain and suffering you lot have caused, I'm kinda glad you have been stuffed over. Now you know what it feels like eh?

empty heart in a beautiful world


Re: No Surprise

21.10.2010 22:12

Couldn't agree more with what 'I' said above. This was blindingly obvious. There was circumstantial evidence longer than my arm for years and many people had been avoiding working with him and advising others to do the same. The real lesson here seems to be to trust your instincts. This police operation was sloppy as fuck and we fell for it for a decade.

Crav


Betrayed? Yes, but carry on.

21.10.2010 22:20

Easy for me to say this as I didn't know the person. But if you are, quite rightly, feeling betrayed, let down, and infiltrated, you are probably right to feel that.

But don't let those feelings stop you from being an activist. A quick search on Indymedia will show you how many actions do succeed. And we have to keep doing those actions - even if there might be an infiltrator.

Most times, there will not be, and we must keep fighting the good fight. What ever it takes.

...---...


Dial

21.10.2010 22:44

shoe on other foot for once
21.10.2010 22:06

with the amount of pain and suffering you lot have caused, I'm kinda glad you have been stuffed over. Now you know what it feels like eh?
empty heart in a beautiful world


Take a look at this sicko.

187


@ crav

21.10.2010 22:45

Your 'blindingly obvious' comment is incredibly insensitive and untrue.

anon


Burn Notice

21.10.2010 23:08

Another of Mark's e-mail addresses is  markstone@o2email.co.uk .
That one goes direct to his mobile, the number for which is 07590189428 .

anon


also this email address

21.10.2010 23:20

 trailertrashheroe@yahoo.co.uk

and one that was summat like ms1969@ blah blah.

check your lists, and remove as appropriate. aktivix are already checking for any with these emails.

whats good is how much stuff DID happen despite his involvement. scum. the fall out will take time, but amazing networks of solidarity... love and rage.

doing tedious admin stuff makes you feel better, then you get another memory in your head and it feels like youve just found out all over again.

please can we stop the insensitive comments based on peoples appearance as a method to tell their trustworthiness? x

anon


....

21.10.2010 23:25

possibly hoping for too much, but really do hope that this scumbag piece of shit tops himself.. saying that, scumbags like him dont have much human feelings left so wont be holding my breath.. wish you all the worst pig! ACAB

anarchist


Biily No Mates

21.10.2010 23:26

Well, this turd has just wasted a decade of his life What a complete waste of 10 years! One day, he will realise what he has done, and will regret wasting his very existence for the sake of the state... for a payslip . . .for the oppressive system that we live next to.

What a turd, my condolences go out to those who were close to him and were fooled by him.

What this does highlight (again) is that dicks like this are among networks. Part of the furniture unfortunately, bnig bruv is scared of us and wants the inside scoop. Guess people just need to play a bit more wisely and be vigilant without being paranoid.

Little Sista


well

22.10.2010 00:44

personally i feel sick. retrospectively things make sense but theres nothing we can do now eh? maybe just be a bit more suss about people who are a bit too "flash"...

noone


The morning after the news

22.10.2010 08:02

"There was circumstantial evidence longer than my arm for years and many people had been avoiding working with him and advising others to do the same."

All I can say is that none of that reached me. Something to think about, without starting witch hunts all over. I guess I trusted the judgement of those from his area who, for good and understandable reasons, kept suspicions under their hats. We may need to re-think that.

Don't agree with "trust your instincts". Time after time, instincts in this area have turned out to be wrong and fingered an innocent person, sometimes driving them away.

We need to be more aware of objective information / discrepancies rather than "instincts". Balancing this with not tearing ourselves apart in mutual suspicion isn't easy, though. If there's something about my life / past / actvities which worries people, I hope they'd raise it with me. I could put their mind at rest. Flash Mark probably couldn't.

I don't understand how people can be saying he must now be devastated at his own treachery, might be going to top himself etc. Why? He obviously doesn't give a shit to have done this in the first place and what a great time he's had for 10 years! All the joys of the scene he's been involved in with none of the fears and risks. The only person without that sinking feeling in his stomach before a big action, I guess. It made him seem calm in a crisis (because it wasn't a crisis for him) so other people tended to view him as a sort of rock of stability in at least a couple of panicky situations.

RATCLIFFE TRIAL. Oh yes, this might well have a bearing. I'm sure its being thought about.

Stroppyoldgit


Judas pays the highest price

22.10.2010 09:02

If we are dissenting and significant then we will be infiltrated. We should bear this in mind and act appropriately at all times. As for Mark, I honestly believe the greatest harm he has done is to himself. He may well have got ten years on pay, dossing around and having a laugh (at our expense) but the real currency of life is human relationships and he's just lost a decade's worth - forever. Nobody is so cold and hard that they can remain unaffected by that.

anon


Post Mortems wont help

22.10.2010 10:04

Although its very natural I dont think any rationalisation of why he did it will help. We will never know - there is a million reasons as to why he may have done it but ultimately these dont matter. The most important thing is that he did it and we now know - there is one position worse - that he remained at large.

Solidarity with those hurt.....

Grumpy Barfin - Peoples Republic of North Dublin


did his confession reveal any specific information?

22.10.2010 10:19

My heart goes out to folk who have been fucked over by this and I'm sure this is a difficult time but it might be a good use of energy to salvage what we can in terms of information.

It would be useful for people in the networks he infiltrated to detail as best they can any information they were able to garner from him during his confession or otherwise about where these networks have been compromised.

This goes to show how important trust is.

anon


Legal options

22.10.2010 10:21

I know we're still at the shock/grieving stage, but I hope that somebody's going to look into the possibility of suing the shit out of somebody. I don't know a whole lot about the law, but what Mark did seems to me like it ought to be a breach of people's reasonable expectations of a private life.

SinkLikeAStone


Also

22.10.2010 10:26

Since nobody's said it yet, massive props to the people who sussed and confronted him.

SinkLikeAStone


Support

22.10.2010 10:43

I hope anyone who is feeling really down about this will take heart from all the messages of solidarity above. Don't let this fuck up fuck you up - nine years of being lied to and decieved will have a profound effect on those he spent time with. Get some support if you need it - please don't struggle alone.
www.activist-trauma.net

bothered of Batley.


Legal Options

22.10.2010 10:50

On the matter of legal implications: sex, consent and rape.

"A person consents if s/he agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice."

Click


this is strange

22.10.2010 10:53

Obviously, people have gone to some length to spread this via mail, lists and web. But the article lacks a lot of necessary information and there's no contact given to get in touch with the people who wrote it. And please, PLEASE don't ever make a first publication about a suspected informer on indymedia, where anyone can publish. Get it published on a reliable source where publihers can be held responsible for what they are distributing (morally, not legally).

anonymous


additional email adresses and phone numbers

22.10.2010 10:55

Here are two other email adresses he has used in the past four years and one mobile number

 mslondon1969@yahoo.co.uk

 flashwheels@yahoo.co.uk

+44 7765243665

from Denmark


more on undercover police

22.10.2010 11:04

Found this article today

Undercover policeman reveals how he infiltrated UK's violent activists, 14 march 2010, guardian

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/14/undercover-policeman-infiltrated-violent-activists

"My role was to provide intelligence about protests and demonstrations, particularly those that had the potential to become violent," he said. "In doing so, the campaigns I was associated with lost much of their effectiveness, a factor that ultimately hastened their demise."

His deployment, which lasted from 1993 to 1997, ended amid fears that his presence and role within groups protesting about black deaths in police custody and bungled investigations into racist murders would be revealed during the public inquiry by Sir William Macpherson into the death of south London teenager Stephen Lawrence.

His decision to tell his story to the Observer provides the most detailed account of the shadowy and controversial police unit that has provided intelligence from within political and protest movements for more than four decades. He believes the public should be able to make an informed decision about whether such covert activities are necessary, given their potential to curtail legitimate protest movements.

Officer A � with a long ponytail, angry persona and willingness to be educated in the finer points of Trotskyist ideology � was never suspected by those he befriended of being a member of the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS), a secret unit within Special Branch, whose job is to prevent violent public disorder on the streets of the capital. Known as the "hairies" due to the fact that its members do not have to abide by usual police regulations about their appearance, the unit consists of 10 full-time undercover operatives who are given new identities, and provided with flats, vehicles and "cover" jobs while working in the field for up to five years at a time.

...


how to deal responsible with outings (this article doesn't)

22.10.2010 11:08

I can not tell whether the above article is spreading news or rumours. What I can tell is that if the claims made here are true then the whole approach of the article doesn't serve the cause of spreading reliable and important information about informants within our movements. Whereas if it's just an attempt to spread rumors about an activist then it's quite easy to see through - which makes it hard for me to understand why it is highlighted on the first page. This is anything but a thoughtful or responsible outing. There has been a long history of counter information tactics directed against radical movements and designed to discredit and divide people and structures. Therefore, any group with even the slightest bit of experience or reflection on the issue of outings will at least make sure to heed the following points:

- If you are suspecting someone of being an informant you have a responsibility (for the structures that person is in but also for the person itself and the effect false rumors can have on that persons activism and life) to start some serious research to either substantiate or dispel that suspicion.
- If you find your suspicions substantiated by your research you should make the facts public in order to protect radical movements and stop the person in question from causing more harm.
- Although it may not be possible or desirable to publish all the information you have about an informant or how you managed to collect information about him/her, you should be going to great length to make it transparent to others that your claims are based on facts. Don't expect people to just believe you. If we just believe and spread any claims we are making it very easy for state agencies to manipulate and damage our activities and tructures.
- An outing should be published or supported by a known group that can be contacted and held accountable for the published claims or asked questions. If you are not a known or open group yourself go find one to support your outing (if your research was any good, then this shouldn't be difficult since all radical groups have a self-interest in stopping informants. If you don't know any known or open groups then local antirepression groups are a good place to start. They can also give you advice on dealing with suspicions and doing responsible research). Of course, any supporting group needs to check the research they are asked to support and not just embrace it because the people that made it seem genuine at first glance.
- As in any useful report, make sure you answer the Five W's - Who? (Who was involved?), What? (What happened (what's the story))? Where? (Where did it take place?), When? (When did it take place?), Why? (Why did it happen?), How? (How did it happen?).

Ofcourse anyone reading an outing also has a responsibility. So, if the supposed outing basically says "This sucker is an informant. We know. We won't tell you who we are or how to get in touch. We just know, trust us, believe us. Here's some photos. Go spread the word. Trust us. We are in control." you should NOT spread this, rather help to make sure that everyone in our movements understands why it is irresponsible and damaging to spread claims that have not been substantiated.

That also goes for indymedia editors. Ok, so anyone can post on indy and that's good. What I don't understand is why the indymedia uk team decided to put this on the promoted newswire, even highlighting it. People, please learn to act responsibly - don't just rush and promote any information that may seem urgent because you might find yourself spreading disinformation designed to destroy people or movements. Or, if the indy team has reliable information that this article is based on facts rather than suspicions or sheer libel, then please go and help the authors write a useful piece of news about it.
The way it is this posting should be removed both from the promoted and from the open newswire because it may be a serious attempt to effectively destroy a persons life and activity.

commonsense


fight back

22.10.2010 11:11

it's time to give that asshole what he deserves, and that would be some weeks in hospital!

required


He was only doing his job!

22.10.2010 11:12

One of the comments on here suggests that we sue him for damages!

Brilliant, even when they've been utterly screwed over by the state's secret police, some 'activists' STILL think it's 'unfair' and that the law can work for them, instead. Asking the state for permission, complaining about their agents doing their job, whining about how unfair it is...

The naivety of 'careerist' activists (ie, the quite posh ones, ex-students etc; the ones who go on to run Greenpeace if the money is good) is the reason I can't any longer be involved in anything 'oppositional'. I don't want to go to prison, after all.

The inability of some people to spot an obvious copper is truly astounding - until you consider the facts: very often, 'activists' and cops speak the same language and have much more in common than, say, a cop and someone living on benefits on a sink estate, or a trendy 'activist' and a genuine career criminal. This is why it's so easy to say 'chav' or 'criminal' as an insult, but so difficult to say 'cop bastards'.

Right now some activists are thinking, 'well, maybe we can forgive him in the end, he's cleary confused, he suffers from depression', etc etc. Whereas anyone with any real experience of police brutality (ie, working class experience) will be wondering why his address hasn't been posted here, so we can sort him out properly before he gets an new ID and a new location.

The lesson? Know your enemy, and on activities that might actually make a difference work only with real friends in small, small groups, never brag or boast, and be aware of the braying careerists in your midst - they have NO IDEA how it works!

Uncle Acab


The confronters & the betrayed

22.10.2010 11:49

The confronters: As SinkLikeAStone said, I want to thank the people who finally confronted Mark with their suspicions/fears/facts. It must have taken a LOT of guts and huge sadness too, to confront an old mate with the one of worse accusations in activist movements, that of being a police informer. It's not something you'd do lightly or easily and the links on here to the guide to dealing with informers is important reading. It's too easy to go along with what everyone else believes and to stifle those nagging worries. Thank you for putting our solidarity and protection before your own desire to not rock boats and keep friendships.

The betrayed: Just want to say that, whatever else Mark is, I do believe he had genuine feelings for those he had meaningful relationships with in the last 9 years. He's a lying, worthless shit but I don't believe he could be with such beautiful, wonderful people and not feel love.

anon


no concrete evidence - indymedia editors: please remove this article

22.10.2010 12:07

Please notice that Bristol indymedia removed these articles from their website and instead published the following statement:


Article regarding undercover policeman

The recent article regarding a certain individual being an undercover policeman has been removed due to at present their being no concrete factual evidence to support this claim.

Please do not repost this article.

 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696056

I believe all indymedia portals should do the same and anyone who helped spread this disinformation should stop and think before they help to spread rumors next time. Otherwise you might find yourself doing the police's work yourself - without even getting paid for it (see  http://shawnewald.info/aia/sec_cointelpro.html for an overview of typical police counter intelligence tactics to spread rumors, divide and destroy radical activists and movements).

anonymous


to "commonsense"

22.10.2010 12:07

While I accept the story is still lacking in a lot of facts and that is less than desireable, a number of people in/close to indymedia have spoken to people involved in the exposure and confirmed it. The gravity of the situation warrants the promotion of this article. Part of the reason details are lacking is that there is a lot of work going into to support those who have been deeply emotionally affected by these revelations - at the moment they deserve the space to take stock. However, the bottom line is that Mark has been confronted and he has admitted he has been a serving copper.

FTP


black ops operative?

22.10.2010 12:08

Mark Stone/Kennedy was a close confidant of a senior person of the Wombles � to an extent that the impression given was that it was a relationship which was pursued to an almost conspiratorial degree (hushed conversations in corners).

Stroppy Old Git said earlier that we should take care jumping to conclusions upon acting on first instincts with newcomers into the scene (I paraphrase). While I would agree with this, with Stone, I suspected him as possibly working for some black ops outfit associated with rogue operations within the security services, from almost the first time I met him. Fortunately, not living in Nottingham, I haven�t had much dealings with him. However, I do have to say that if they were my first instincts about him, if I had been involved in any activity where he was involved, I�d have steered well clear of him (however, I admit this is easier said than done when you have no evidence � but I would certainkly have put a word in peoples� ears so as to influence decision-making steering clear of having him informed of crucial information).

My information about the Wombles may or may not be anything, having only been involved with them at the fringes. What I will say is that the Wombles did a fine job for a while of escalating anti-terror survelliance in the scene through deliberately provocative violent insurrectionary rhetoric, not really backed up with anything part from concentrating on radical anarchist gesture activist stunts. Having evolved from a confrontational tactic at large demonstrations, the group and it�s protaganists saw themselves as some kind of Greek anarchist style vanguard against capitalism � a cut and paste reactionary direct-action ethos from a different cultural context and setting which had no interactive dynamic with any element of civil society or workers in London (though it said it did); the no-borders philosophy was at the heart of the group�s ethos (more so as time went on).


beady eye


hairy

22.10.2010 12:11

Given the things I've been hearing it sounds like Mark was a hairy - one of the officers of the special demonstration squad the special branch offshoot who focus on domestic protest movements and get away with this sort of long term infiltration. Hopefully that is him well and truly burned as an officer and we never see his face again. Given how much upset he has caused there can be no sympathy for how he is feeling. Truly, he is a dog of the bosses.

unnecessary


Re: black ops operative?

22.10.2010 12:42

"We assume that at every meeting there are at least one journalist and one Special Branch officer."
 http://www.wombles.org.uk/article200610352.php

Searcher


Serious weaknesses in activist culture

22.10.2010 12:57

As a total outsider to this scene I'd like to say that whether this allegation is true or not, either way it highlights serious weaknesses in activist culture and working methods. Ideally more evidence should have been presented, but admittedly a verbal admission on the alleged infiltrator's part could not be circulated unless it was recorded or filmed. Tricky situation, but there are some things that should remain obvious to even the dumbest activist .......

If people had their suspicions about this guy because he had no apparent source of income but loads of money, was shifty about letting people meet his family, etc, then if he was involved in serious stuff, any group worth their salts would have politely insisted he demonstrate how he came by his income by showing bank statements, credit card records, tax bills etc immediately. Any activist worth their salts would not be offended by such a request, and if he refused to play ball or the group/s concerned weren't convinced by his evidence then he should be quietly asked to leave just in case. In this day and age, if people are passionate about a cause there's plenty they can do to promote it without joining any group (it's called the internet), so while an exclusion like this might come as a blow it doesn't stop anyone working hard for their beliefs.

Instead it seems a whole network of activist groups allowed themselves to be FOOLED because this bloke was a bit of a good-time boy, liked a pint, and could be relied on to do the dog-work (in this case the driving) that SO many activists always want someone else to take responsibility for. Are British activists really that easy to sucker?

I (very slightly) considered approaching organised Anti-Fascist group/s a few years back, but made a conscious decision to go freelance instead, reasoning that if I did get involved you could safely assume at least 1 person at every meeting would be Special Branch, and that's assuming the people in the group could be guaranteed not to gossip or let you down themselves. Put it this way, SOE agent Noor Inayat Khan was grassed to the Gestapo by a member of her own group who was jealous of her good looks (no kidding). Now (as a chubby, middle aged bloke) I'm not saying I'm as attractive as Noor Khan (hey ho) but in all seriousness this thread suggests "Anti-Fascism" (presumably Antifa) has been infiltrated, and I've read stuff on-line claiming one Anti-Fascist group have been meeting self-proclaimed "ex"-EDL member Charlie Flowers - and I wonder who the fuck HE reports what he hears back to? Conclusion - both of my major misgivings about joining activist groups were proven right. As for the suggestion that this guy deserves a kicking, I think we can all see this is posted by either an idiot or a troll who wants to see the alleged infiltrator's victims jailed for assault.

Not Impressed


re: removal from bimc

22.10.2010 13:03

whilst i totoally undestand why its signed anonymous, it would be help for those who don't know who the group are to have some kind of identity, or maybe the statement can be guranteed by notts imc?

as i know the people involved i have no such need, but would deal with some of the speculation.

chris b


I saw mark kissung santa

22.10.2010 13:06

love you beady eye, love what you have to say.

Now get back to admin duties on your libertarian communist forum that no-one uses anymore.

Shepherding the gossip


Further Info

22.10.2010 13:09

OK I've been in touch with the people who posted this originally re: the "How to deal responsibly with outings" comment above, and they wished to add the following:

The points raised are valid concerns.

Sorry but those closely involved are not willing to take on dealing with enquiries - as you can imagine things are incredibly hard for them right now and they're just not up for reading through everyone's comments on the subject.

The situation here is unique as far as we know because Mark was outed while he was still embedded, and had been involved not just with one campaign or group but with networks of close friends on a personal level. There's no rule book for this, and there's no one group who would have been the appropriate vehicle for verifying the research.

What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed.

Sorry the evidence cannot be shared because it would put others at risk, but if you have doubts then try to contact Mark to ask him yourself. All known phone numbers aren't working and his profile disappeared from Facebook early yesterday.

Anyone and their granny could be made to look suspicious with circumstantial evidence. Thorough research was done here in the most covert and sensitive way, leading to A CONFESSION from Mark. This really is not rumour, much as we wish it was.

Others can help by passing on only ACCURATE information and avoiding speculation, which is what I'm trying to do here.

Hope this helps.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


to "FTP"

22.10.2010 13:19

If a lot of people from within and around indymedia could support these claims then a statement of the indy team should by now be visible on the start page - and not a clear statement by indymedia Bristol that the articles were taken down due to the lack of any evidence to confirm these claims.

If you care about people who were close to the supposed informer then you shouldn't go around publishing anonymous rumors like this in the first place.

Even if you have no time to put more effort into this, you should be making sure that it is not published in a way that can not possibly be trusted (anonymous on indymedia and without a contact possibilty). If your claims are true and your research was thorough, then you shouldn't have a hard time to find supporting groups who will help you both with the emotional and the political side of things. The outing should be published in their name or with their support on their website or some other publication that outsiders can trust not to be fake (unlike an indymedia article).

If you are real (and you're not making it easy to believe you are), then what you are doing now is hurting radical activism in more than one sense. If your claims are true then the way you are going about this is not helping to remove a potentially dangerous individual from our structures because anyone can see that at the moment all of this is just a matter of "believe it or not". If you want people to believe something, join a religious movement. Otherwise, present facts and groups that can testify your research. Also, think: You want people to just believe you although you are providing absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims of having done good research. Now if everyone went about outings like this, no-one would be able to tell whose claims are genuine and whose are preposterous. That's why outings need to be transperent, based on evidence and be backed up by accountable groups.

Currently you are creating a precedent which, if copied by others, can be absolutely destructive for all radical movements. It has been in the past, it is in the present and it will be in the future.

commonsense


@ 'not impressed'

22.10.2010 13:40

You start your comment with "As a total outsider to this scene" and state that you've never gotten involved with any anti fascist group*. So its a bit rich that you state that people should have been able to see through it. How exactly do you know whether you would be any better at identifying infiltrators, if you've never even put yourself in the position of working with a group? You're throwing criticism around where you've no clue. You've no idea what it might be like to be in the position of the people who've been involved with this person. You've nothing constructive to say, so why say it, if you've any of the same goals as the "scene" you choose to remain outside of?

(*I've no issue with that, by the way, and can see your reasoning for making that choice.)


Spider


@trusted activist

22.10.2010 14:02

Most of what you are saying sounds reasonable. And of course the people who did the research shouldn't have to be the same people who will now "spread the word". And of course it may not be possible to disclose all information or research procedures (I already said that in my first comment).

But that is precisely the reason why known, accountable, trusted groups are needed to support claims as these, otherwise they are not only useless but dangerous.

You say that the current situation is "unique" because the person in question was involved in a number of campaings, groups and networks of friends. Actually, where I'm from that has been the case with quite a few people who were outed as informers or even police or secret service employees. I don't find this unusual. This doesn't mean that every group the person was involved in has to co-author an outing. What it does mean is that there are a number of groups and people who have a vested interest in checking the research and getting this information out. So it shouldn't be at all difficult to approach one of those groups, have them check the material and ask them to co-author or support the outing and publish it on their website, their newspaper etc. So why should none of these groups be appropriate "for verifying the research" ? Maybe none of them had insight into all activities, but then they could at least testify what they can support from their perspective and wether the research seems "overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented" to them (as you said it is).

Unless you want people to just believe anything claimed by anyone, that is the only responsible way to go about an outing and I do not see any way around it. An anonymous posting on indymedia is certainly no use (even a non-anonymous posting on indymedia since noone can tell whether those poting are who they claim to be).

So please, get in touch with groups who have an interest in checking this, have them check the material at hand and have them write a statement or co-operatively write a statement and publish it somewhere where its not as easy to spread rumors and post fakes as indymedia.



The situation here is unique as far as we know because Mark was outed while he was still embedded, and had been involved not just with one campaign or group but with networks of close friends on a personal level. There's no rule book for this, and there's no one group who would have been the appropriate vehicle for verifying the research.

What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed.

commonsense


reply

22.10.2010 14:15

'Commonsense' - normally I'd fully agree with you, but I have to second the account given in "Further Info". In this case, I've been speaking to people who have been caught up in this and right now the concern is for protecting them as much as possible. I have dealt with infiltrators before, helping expose them as well as contributing to the activist security pamphlet on this (have heard that there should be a load at the bookfair tomorrow). However, in my judgment, at the moment the balance should be with protecting the people who are traumatized and physically shattered by what they have just gone through. This is not a "run of the mill" outing, and while it has not been ideal situation, I think that they have handled it well all considering. Anyone who has spoken to people involved in the McLibel infiltration or the Rob Gilchrist infiltration in New Zealand which bears remarkable similarities to this one knows how raw a situation is and that there are competing issues that are near impossible to balance.

A series of phone calls happened yesterday to inform people and groups and to get the message out. Sorry that this could not be done as transparently as people would like, but this is why the story is not simply being treated as disinfo. Its been barely 24 hours before all this started to kick off - give people a chance, and if people really need to know more then I find it hard to believe that our networks are not so large that we cannot find people who will corroborate this story. Once more information can be release, then it will be.

Right now, my support remains with the wonderful people who took on this headfuck of an issue.

I hope Bristol IMC re-instate this story.

FTP


@beady eye

22.10.2010 14:37

If you have any concerns about the "senior person" from the wombles then we will all be down at the Bookfair so please lets put a name to your face rather than hiding behind indymedia.

please get in contact with your allegations and evidence to:  adminwombles@hotmail.co.uk



wombles


@Spider

22.10.2010 14:44

** "You start your comment with "As a total outsider to this scene" and state that you've never gotten involved with any anti fascist group. So its a bit rich that you state that people should have been able to see through it. How exactly do you know whether you would be any better at identifying infiltrators?"

I did not claim I'd be any better at spotting infiltrators, but (with respect) yours is a non-point however, as people who say they worked with this guy for years have already said they suspected he was an infiltrator. Since they'd already spotted aspects of his behaviour that raised suspicions, and since their concerns seem to have been based on sound reasoning, logically they should have acted on those concerns. Picking me up on whether I would have done better is irrelevant - the point is that if Anti-Fascist groups handled this sort of thing better then they'd be more successful at earning the trust of outsiders, on which basis I'd argue they'd be more successful, period

** "You're throwing criticism around where you've no clue"

I'm throwing criticism on the basis of clues posted here by people who say they knew this guy for years

** "You've nothing constructive to say, so why say it"?

I have got something constructive to say, the problem is you don't seem to have fully understood it. Criticism is always constructive, even if (unlike mine) it was intended to be hostile. Like I said, I'm an outsider, so it makes no odds to me personally, but if you're in an active Anti-Fascist group then it's your group/s that need to learn from this kind of experience. If the message that goes out to the world is that your groups can be easily suckered then don't be surprised if people are reluctant to join your groups. In that respect, don't shoot the messenger (and please go away and think about that before posting any hasty response)

Not Impressed


Response to Verification Concerns

22.10.2010 14:52

Totally appreciate your concerns, commonsense, and we're hoping that the Indymedia UK collective may become the "trusted group" to verify this story. Nottingham Indymedia are also doing something on this as Mark was there a lot and they will be able to confirm the story through trusted sources.

I have asked if someone from Bristol Indymedia could contact me, but no reply yet.

From the OUTSIDE this must look completely unverified, but this really wouldn't have got this far if information had not been backed up with large numbers of phone calls behind the scenes from people who were known and trusted.

It's hard at this point to see what more we can do since the actual documents cannot be published without putting innocent parties at risk.

We're working on it. Helpful, SENSITIVE suggestions welcome.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Bristol Indy's position

22.10.2010 15:08

Just a point of clarification: the Bristol IndyMedia Collective have hidden a couple of articles of a similar nature to this one. We're reviewing the situation, and trying to get more information about these allegations. Depending on what happens the articles may or may not be reinstated.

Bristol indymedia person
home Homepage: http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696056


Just in case he's reading this...

22.10.2010 15:45

...I've known Mark for about 7 years, treated him as a friend and comrade, drank with him and had a laugh with him, he bought my baby little jumpsuits when he was born and we stayed on his boat in May.

Water off a duck's back, fuck him. I've got friends and comrades that will be with me to the grave, this pussy will find that his pal's in the met would stab their granny if they thought a promotion was in it.

Rudeboy


Are there.....

22.10.2010 15:54

It may not be the time to mention it but if he has been 'under' for 9 years he will have introduced others once he had established his credibility. This tactic was mentioned in the BBC documentary.

Others


A suggestion

22.10.2010 16:05

I'm not one of those demanding documentary evidence etc.

It may be impossible to produce that, as has been said, without putting other people at risk. Any chance of "redacting" it (I hate that word, it's normally a guilty bureaucrat or evasive politician's euphemism) so that the innocent are protected but the doubters can be satisfied?

Might not be, of course.. Just a thought.

Stroppyoldgit


@ 'commonsense'

22.10.2010 16:09

To Commonsense: You raised some excellent points, one of them being that an outing can be a tool to divide us.

But since that's true, then it follows that there isn't a way which would be "the only responsible way to go about an outing" as you claim. Because as soon as that way is used, it becomes available to the cops to use for a deliberately false outing.

In this light, your assertion that "...there are a number of groups and people who have a vested interest in checking the research and getting this information out", takes on a whole new meaning, does it not?

I agree that a statement on indymedia isn't inherently 'secure' in the sense of 'verifiable', but why would I believe one from a group? Is it telling that you don't list any specific groups - is this because in naming them they'd become less secure?

I'm not disagreeing with your main point. I'm just disagreeing with the slightly strident tone which started to gain ground in your posts, an assumption that it should be obvious to everyone what to do - for example when you say:

"...it shouldn't be at all difficult to approach one of those groups, have them check the material and ask them to co-author or support the outing and publish it on their website, their newspaper etc. ... Unless you want people to just believe anything claimed by anyone, that is the only responsible way to go about an outing and I do not see any way around it."

I hope that I've respectfully pointed out a downside to your suggestion, even if not a 'way around it'.

It seems to me that wherever we hear an allegation, or have suspicions, we are always going to have a delicate balance to strike: each of us needs to reserve judgement - 'it might not be true' - while exercising caution - 'how can I protect myself and others in case it IS true?'. Usually, it seems to me, we just have to live with, and act on, both - simultaneously. As difficult as it is necessary.

Meanwhile, it's also worth remembering that there are other ways that people can be untrustworthy (i.e. other than being cops) and yet end up involved. Which means that sometimes people can do shit things when they are otherwise a respected activist, and sometimes false allegations can flare up against people who, while not being perfect, end up as scapegoats. Discussions on how to act responsibly around these situations have been going on in Bristol for a number of reasons, which might be one context for why BIM pulled the story. But it's absolutely not exclusive to there, nor will it ever stop being an issue everywhere.

Massive love and solidarity for those who have had to take extremely difficult action on this. Well done and thank you for your courage. Thank you too to those who have posted wise comments on this site about not letting these realities destroy the good things, not least our courage to love as well as confront. Sad, sad days; onwards in hope.

Tricky Balance


Thanks for suggestion

22.10.2010 16:30

Stroppyoldgit - thanks for the suggestion, we are considering doing that and are still undecided. We think that it might just start speculation about the possibility of the documents having been photoshopped (altered/forged), which would just lead to more rounds of "yes it is/no it isn't".

Right now it would also mean more work for the people most closely involved, so holding fire until they've had a chance to at least get some sleep.

Best "proof" right now seems to be that he has disappeared, and if people follow their own chains of trusted people then they may be able to verify that for themselves.

Your help much appreciated though.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Nottingham Indymedia Confirmation

22.10.2010 16:33

"The Notts Indymedia collective can confirm that the following information is correct..."  https://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/611

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Bristol republish

22.10.2010 16:35

Following discussion on our lists, and notably the Nottingham Indymedia feature
 http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/611

Bristol Indymedia have republished this story on our newswire
 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/696047

Bristol IMC person
home Homepage: http://bristol.indymedia.org


"He lost all his friends, you, everyone ... We have to make ends meet."

22.10.2010 16:48

 http://www.markthomasinfo.com/section_writing/default.asp?id=30

Here you are Stone or Kennedy, this is what you will go through and I hope your family suffers so that it brings home to you what a low-life you are, you slimy conniving oiece of shit.

You spent years being false and I hope your 30 pieces of silver are enough to buy the rope when you decide to follow the example of Judas.

And I'm sure your reading this, once a Secret Policeman, always a Secret Policeman.

octavist


I was his housemate for years

22.10.2010 17:16

...and yes, he did treat the place like a hotel, spending most of his time working in London. Yes, we did take the piss out of him over it.

Now we know why.

Those who say on here that they suspected him all along should bear in mind that their comments might hurt and upset those who thought that Mark was annoying and smug at times, but had no such suspicions.

Basically, there's no point in sneering after the event. We need to stick together as a community, move on and learn from this.

R


It won't stop us

22.10.2010 17:37

As long as there is oppression and injustice, people will always be motivated to resist it. One undercover cop won't change that. There are more of us than there are of them.

Panda


Darby case: similarites?

22.10.2010 18:04

If we want to learn from this incident this is a story about another recently 'outed' infiltrator whom we can learn from. Brendon Darby is a different man in a very different country. The amount of violence he used and his extremely disruptive behaviour would not have been possible in UK activism I think. However there are some aspects of Darby's story which may have been similar. Mark had quite a bit of personal charisma and charm for example.
 http://breakallchains.blogspot.com/2010/03/lisa-fithian-fbi-informant-brandon.html

140


experience with mark

22.10.2010 18:22

after seeing mark at various action camps, and taking him up on many offers to drive things all over the place, i had trusted him pretty much. he told me he had a crew ready to drive all over europe to do direct action, especially to confront nazis with serious action. i thought he was opening the doors to doing serious direct and/or violent actions. i never took him up on the idea.

another time after a night out of really getting wasted drunk, he wanted to go with me to a brothel. i found that a bit surprising for such a "pc" and pro-feminist guy. maybe his contact with me tapered off after i turned him down on that offer.

another odd thing about him was that although he often talked of radical action (he actually did do a lot, including in Iceland), he never wanted to use pgp or encrytion.

another time, he told me he was being followed all over by cops. was this to make me paranoid? or was it to check out my reaction?

what we need to do is just be aware that this kind of thing will always happen. i never trust anyone 100%. at the same time, we need to keep going, and not be afraid because of shit like this.

ok now, back to the barricades.
>:)

not the first time...we will keep fighting!


Zat is... interezting...

22.10.2010 18:40

Vot iz your name?
LOL

Charlie
mail e-mail: fightingcocks@live.co.uk


what a drama.

22.10.2010 18:51


haha!

Udo Voigt


Why are our names being brought into this? Why are saying that about Charlie?

22.10.2010 19:28

Why are you bringing our names into this and why say that about Charlie?

Whatever the ins and outs of Mark Stone being a cop which hasn't been proved on here I think it's wrong to suggest that Charlie Flowers is some kind of informant or policeman. The meet between Camden Antifash and Charlie Flowers was productive in keeping things peaceful in Camden. People have opposing views on some things and agree on some things. The people that have supported Camden Antifash are from mixed backgrounds, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists White, Black, Brown etc. We all agree that racism is wrong and we also agree that racist or religious extremism is damaging and needs to be stopped. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and it doesn't make someone racist. There are younger people linked to Camden Antifash of different racial backgrounds and immigrant backgrounds who are patriotic about being English or whatever and are also proud of being Jewish or Muslim etc. When people get to meet they can find that they have things in commonrather than not.

Charlie Flowers did a fine job of stopping a potentially stupid situation from occurring in Camden. He is not the fucking police and neither are we. If people have something to say to any of us then meet and talk to us.

Camden Antifash
mail e-mail: camdenantifash@yahoo.co.uk


Timing not good

22.10.2010 19:38

It's a bit unfortunate this broke 2 days before @ Bookfair. That event, for all it's merits, can be to a common or garden rumour mill as a concrete crusher is to wee pepper grinder.

All efforts to keep the bollocks within bounds, avoid mad paranoia and ill-founded accusations, and limit the inevitable discussion to the few facts we know will be good work done.

After that, we can set about demolishing the olympic stadium with a toothpick.

Stroppyoldgit


common sense?

22.10.2010 19:40

what has been written on several pages, in indymedia comments and on lists by now has persuaded me that this outing is genuine. I hope that my later comments did not offend those directly affected or seem as if I was not in solidarity with them. I also agree with "TrickyBalance" that my comments became increasingly strident and that this isn't at all helpful. I was indeed quite angry at what appeared to me as an unjustifiable lax handling of the responsibilities connected with an outing, and the first answers which I did notice were very thoughtful but seemed to me to be evading some points I brought up which made me even more angry. As someone who is not involved it should have been me who could have been expected to act more calmly. I am afraid my anger about how easily rumors are often spread within our structures and how destructive this can be for our movements and many individuals involved got the better of me. Thanks to everyone who answered my comments and remained calm (and especially to "FTP" and "trusted activist" for your commitment to clarify the situation.

In my first, still calm comment I tried to bring up a number of tips for outings that I continue to believe are important to bear in mind when dealing with such a situation.

One of the main ones being that when publishing an outing it is important to make as much of your research methods and evidence transparent as seems possible(!), publish it in a medium that is not easily manipulated and - if you are not one yourself - get known, trusted and reachable groups to support your claims after having checked the evidence. All of these points are important to establish some kind credibility and accountability so that those of us who were not directly involved in the events can see that those publishing the outing have tried what they could to dispell notions of fake or counter information or manipulation. While I do think trust is an important (and underestimated) quality in emancipatory movements lets not expect people to simply take our word for everything - especially if its something as controversial, difficult and historically abused as an outing.

I agree with "TrickyBalance" that confronted with an outing we will always have to strike a balance between the possibility that it is a fake and the necessity to protect ourselves, our friends and structures. I too believe that it will hardly ever be possible to dispell all and provide 100% certainty and transparency for outsiders. However, I do believe that there are levels of certainty and that radical emancipatory movements we should attempt to reach the highest possible degree. Of course I can not (and will not) be absolutely sure that a statement issued by a known group or organisation has a higher validy than an anonymous posting on indymedia, BUT it will make it much easier for me to judge whether to give a statement the benefit of the doubt (i.e. because known groups can be held accountable, have a reputation to lose, will have good or bad references in their past etc.). I maintain that it would have greatly helped if this had been considered from the beginning. Btw: I did not list any specific groups because I am reading and writing from germany, am not directly involved in the events surrounding the outing and in the british political "scene" and yes, because I believe the research group would know best which groups to approach. However, as I said (at least in germany) if you don't know who else to approach, there is always anti repression structures who consider it part of their activity to support people and groups having to deal with spy/informer suspicions.

Also, I didn't mean to suggest that everything should be perfectly obvious in every case. In every outing there will be individual and specific difficulties to tackle for which you'll find no textbook references. However, I am positive that we can learn from the past and draw conclusions which will be of general use in the future such as those in the last paragraph. And I am also positive that not every strategy we publish can be turned against us. I.e. if we make it "a rule" that outings should be published or backed up by accountable groups this will still not make it easier for state agencies to spread fake accusations but harder because it will mean that they have to infiltrate a group, present material to it and convice it of its claims before they will be published whereas rumors wouldn't get them anywhere. I agree with you that this should be an ongoing debate in which we will never find a perfect solution but we should try our best to stop rumors and false accusations and help others who have good reasons to not just take anyones word believe us when we know that what we are trying to get accross is the truth. In this respect I believe that indymedia Bristol acted very responsible by taking the outing articles off their site until they had verification of the claims by trusted sources.

Finally, we are not perfect and we need not try to appear so. We will continue to make mistakes and that's ok. What made me angry wasn't the fact that things hadn't gone according to "textbook" but that for quite a while it seemed to me that the problematic side of any outing, the possibilty that accusations can be part of a counter information strategy, was dealt with very lightheartedly and that central points were not addressed by those who wrote otherwise thoughtful comments. After dicussing with you people I no longer have this impression

Ok, 'nuff said. Love and solidarity to everyone effected or distressed by these findings.
Find comfort in your friends, courage in the depth of your relationships and the passion of our struggles.

commonsense


How the police operate and a silver lining

22.10.2010 20:31

For more on how these people operate read this from The Observer

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/14/undercover-police-far-left-secret

As far as a silver lining goes, deployment of an undercover officer, as opposed to just an informer, represents a significant use of assets by the police.

There are unlikely to be two of these chaps in close proximity, so if you were infiltrated by Mark, rejoice! You are as near certain as you can be that you have not been infiltrated any further, so put the paranoia behind out and go and do something great.

Martin Porter
mail e-mail: thesnufkin@sky.com
home Homepage: http://www.thesnufkin.blogspot.com


cops trust and love

22.10.2010 20:41

before i got active i knew a nice person who sometime later became a cop.

At my first jaunt into direct action, i saw them fleetingly at eco village g8 scotland and thought no it can't be.... . it has troubled me since. i really hope and wish they are not 'deep' and fucking up friends in groups.

what can we do about this? as a 'newby' i did feel a little excluded and understood the need for security but have had to make the call to take the risk in afinity actions. rather get fucked up trusting than parinoid do nothing.

shuuuush!


another mobile number...

22.10.2010 21:28

... was +447590189428. honeypotted in germany.

...


He confessed when confronted? Big surprise there.

22.10.2010 23:23

"What happened was that someone close to Mark became suspicious. They did a little research and became more suspicious. They asked a friend to help, did further research together, and became even MORE suspicious. Both people kept this incredibly quiet, they didn't even let their partners or closest friends know they were doing this, precisely to stop any unfounded rumours starting about someone before they were absolutely sure. But all the evidence was stacking up in the same direction.

A very small group of people together did enough research to gather overwhelming, incontrovertible, documented evidence. Then six people confronted him and he confessed."

I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place?

This might sound like a dumb question to ask but given that there are pamphlets, manuals etc. being written about how to out an undercover cop, it would seem like a more direct way to go about things. If it works.

Just a thought...

Juniper Berry


Tuniper

23.10.2010 05:13

You've been watching too many US cop shows! Theres way too many smart arses on this thread. Why don't those of you who didn't even know this guy just butt out for a while?

Bunny


Was he convinced?

23.10.2010 08:43

We are in the business of convincing people of the rightness of our causes. Perhaps we succeeded with Mark. He does claim, he stopped being a cop in 2009. If so, why would he hang around doing very useful work for us? He's being doing undercover work for a decade. If he did become convinced over to our side, it would be a very difficult and dangerous process, fully converting himself. That would be from both sides of the double game he was playing. He couldnt just turn round to his pay masters and say, "Hey, Im leaving you lot and joining the anarchists". They would break him, just like they broke David Shayler. Could he just turn to us and say, "Hey, Ive been an undercover cop for 10 years, snitching on you, but Ive changed now. Love me."? How could he believe we would ever forgive him or trust him again. I hardly knew him at all, but if I was one of his friends, as well as feeling furious, hurt and stupid, Id be very worried about him now.
We are thin enough on the ground as it is. If he really has been converted we shouldnt lose him because of past misdemeanors. One thing is for sure, if he does come back to us, he will be under constant scrutiny.

Muddler


more info please

23.10.2010 08:53

As People who had him popping up in our structures the last few years around Europe might be glad the read some more *factual* information. Do you have any? Was this miserable guy questioned, and if so what were his answers? What was his task? Who was he working for? Was he giving detailed information on every action he joined, and if so how and to whom? How was this while abroad (G8 Heiligendmm, for one!) This kind of information would be helpful to us to understand the situation, to repair damage, warn people etc.

dissent-abroad


Either you are completely stupid...

23.10.2010 09:26

...or 12 years old. If the later I apologise.

Has it dawned on your little mind how many people over the years are in prison because of this prick?

In some country's.....I'll leave it there...you get my drift....

Muddlers Mum


Muddler you are a Tit

23.10.2010 09:42

Keep your silly ridiculous thoughts to yourself. The guy who I have known and worked with on numerous actions for eight years is an undercover pig and your suggesting we welcome him back with open arms if he shows forgiveness, well fuck you for your blatant ignorance to the harm he has caused for a decade. I think you are on the wrong website and should perhaps FUCK OFF..

Aunty Christ


Juniper's point

23.10.2010 11:54

Juniper Berry writes above , �I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place�

Perhaps the reason is that nobody knew that an undercover cop had to admit to be being a police officer if asked directly. Are you sure that is the case ,JB ? If it is true , left wing groups should make it a point to formally ask anybody wanting to join their organisation[s] whether or not he or she is a police officer.

tom
home Homepage: http://tomeile@hotmail.co.uk


Response to "More Info Please"

23.10.2010 12:19

As I understand it, anything further that he might have said was considered so unreliable that it's really not useful to anyone, sorry. Maybe worth thinking about whether he introduced you to anyone else, but beyond that I don't think there's any further info that wasn't later contradicted or obviously untrue.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


EDIT: Response to "More Info Please"

23.10.2010 12:26

Oops I can't edit that comment, I don't mean that there was any info that he had introduced anyone else, just that it's something you should consider.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Asking Nicely

23.10.2010 12:28

QUOTE �I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly."

Sorry, simply not true. They can tell any lies they like. If only it were that simple.

A well known, well networked, trusted activist


Groups that endorse this statement

23.10.2010 14:30

Following a meeting at the anarchist bookfair where the evidence was explained and discussed in detail the following groups are convinced enough to endorse the original statement regarding Mark Stone/Kenndy

scottish activist legal project
now or never
nottingham indymedia
anarchist teapot
NETCU watch www.netcu.wordpress.com
Activist security.org
CEntral Animal Liberation Intelligence Unit
Veggies
uk actionmedics

somebody


He Who Laughs Last Laughs Best

23.10.2010 16:09

@ 22.10.2010 18:51 - The wiki to the name you signed that animated GIF with should be quite intructive for the readers of this site:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udo_Voigt

Are you suggesting that the leadership of the German nazi party is choking on their popcorn over this report of human trauma? Apparently the news have not yet spread to each and every island along European shores that now for more than a decade the German supreme court has unsuccessfully been trying to ban it because there are more undercover agents in the leadership than selfmade nazis. It is an open secret that the main purpose of the current nazi party is to provide secret police with an excuse for the vast expenses it is extorting from the public budget. Without that you would be broke already, so your schadenfreude towards neighbouring countries nonwithstanding, the grain of truth which should be added to that is if there ever was such a thing as a theme park for evil infiltrators it clearly is the NPD/VS!

A.N.T.I.F.A.


still: more info please

23.10.2010 18:16

Yes, I wasn't asking to pass on what he told you, of course that would need to be checked first, but you must know more than what is given to us now, you say people have done research, so then let us know what came out of that. who was he working for, what kind of info was he passing on, how, to whom, also abroad, etc? Is anyone working on trying to make a full overview of that kind of information? If so, where can we find that? A report from the meeting on the a-bookfair?

abroad


yes , more info needed

23.10.2010 18:53

I agree with the previous poster . At least an outline of the scope of Stone's activities should be possible without jeopardizing legitimate concerns about getting the facts straight before releasing a report. .Campaigns need to be alerted about possible breaches of security.

There was a post to indymedia ireland today from somebody who said that Stone/Kennedy had "visited Ireland on a couple of occasions". The post didn't say whether Stone was involved with any campaigns while in Ireland ,but that was the poster's implication I thought

tom


More info

23.10.2010 19:36

Bit confused at the people asking for more info above.

"who was he working for," - The police. That's what this article is about.
"what kind of info was he passing on," - Info about activists. That's what this article is about.
"how," - We may never know, but does 'how' matter? The fact that info was being passed on is the main thing.
"to whom," - The police. That's what this article is about.
"also abroad," - No reason why not.
"etc?" - You might need to be more specific.
"Stone/Kennedy had "visited Ireland on a couple of occasions". The post didn't say whether Stone was involved with any campaigns" - I think that's a question for people running campaigns in Ireland to answer.

It strikes me that the point of the original article was to alert activists that Mark S/K was a proven informer. It was not to find out everything that he was involved in. That is the task of individual groups now armed with the knowledge of his betrayal.

=


@ more info

23.10.2010 21:11

Please stop shouting at people asking for more info like they are stupid children. If you think details don't matter in these cases, fine, go along randomly fighting 'the system' (and 'the police'). I was hoping to hear some details so to lear lessons about which institutions are doing what exactly, what instructions do they give, how is the information transmitted etc. In fact the only question was (and this could easily be answered: are people seriously investigating this case and will they come with some reporting or someting (and if so where and when)? That's not too difficult, is it?

abroad


what strikes me most...

23.10.2010 21:56


... is why there is still no mailadress of any group or collective to share more information?

or to get organized with them to become an overview of countries/ spectrums/ protests this man was involved in.

so, does the lack of contact adress mean that there is still no (spontaneus) collective dealing with it?

...


Police and the law

23.10.2010 22:42

"I think that by law, any undercover cop must admit that they are a police officer when asked that question directly. So, um, why didn't you just ask him in the first place? "

What law? This is bollocks-round-a-fire legalism. If you can cite the statute or authority, fine. If not, there is no point in mentioning it.

If there is such a law, the police will, of course, obey it, won't they? And I'm the Archbishop of Canterbury, so I should know.

As for "how many people are in prison because of this guy". Probably none. Information to make arrests and get convictions is not the only purpose of infiltration, and would usually be by a much lower (and cheaper) level of infiltration than this. It's often impossible without the source being sussed and expended. Information for, and implementation of, political, social, tactical or even strategic disruption is the more likely object of this sort of deep infiltration.

Stroppyoldgit


Don't Be Dumb, Be Patient

23.10.2010 23:09

The people dealing with this affair are undergoing a massive traumatic occasion that of course they are aware has huge implications not least for themselves but for the wider movement. Just be patient on more info and evaluation. Expecting a cohesive, packaged answer to how, why and who at this present moment is just being insensitive. This affair is less than a week old - give everyone time to come to terms with at least the most basic outing of a cop in their midst before they can even begin to put further practical actions into effect.



Fair Use Notice and Disclaimer
Send questions or comments about this web site to Ann Berlin, annxtberlin@gmail.com